Bigsby ID

[abalonevintage]

I have seen these Bigsby style trems on MANY 50's and 60's Gibson guitars. Does anybody here know what these actually are?

I can't imagine Gibson would buy a non-Bigsby trem for their guitars since Ted McCarty and Paul Bigsby were such friends.

 

[bigsby'd]

I believe they are cut down B7s, but I'm not 100%. I've seen them as well. I've seen them with 50 features, all the way up to 70s features.

 

[27sauce]

didnt Gibson make some of their own in the '70's?

 

[abalonevintage]

didnt Gibson make some of their own in the '70's?

The ones you may be thinking of are engraved "Gibson."

 

[27sauce]

Ah, yes. I just noticed that they are different

 

[Leña_Costoso]

Funky 73 SG there! No cutaway contours, elevated pickguard (LP style), flat neck set, and front control plate... and Bigsby. Sheesh!

 

[abalonevintage]

Bump...

 

[bigsby'd]

I'm pretty sure those are cut down B7s. I'm not sure if Bigsby cut them down, or if Gibson did. I could see Gibson ordering only B7s and B6s, because that's what they were using the most. These could also be a Bigsby short run. Bigsby did make a horseshoe style unit, with no pressure bar. I thought THOSE were cut down B7s or B6s, but it turned out they weren't. I've only seen 3 of those. The pedal operated tone changer (early b-bender) was another short run...alledgedly less than a dozen. So Bigsby did do short runs...but I really think these are just cut down B7s, as there are variations. Usually short run items were done in small batches for a reason (they didn't work, they didn't sell, they were a special order). I can't see Bigsby making a unit that's nearly identical to another, minus their name. Do you have a loose one Eric?

 

[abalonevintage]

Yes, I do. Is there anything you would like a shot of?

 

[bigsby'd]

The bottom, and a side shot of where the bearings are pressed in. Also, the edge by where the three surface mounting screws are. I'd like to see if that edge is polished, or if there are tool marks. I think the only time I've seen these is on double necks, both hollow and solid.

 

[j45]

We had a discussion several years ago abouit the ones in post #5, not the ones Eric is showing. The ones shown on the 70's guitar engraved "Gibson" were a lot like to the ones on the Japanese copies of that era. They don't have the Bigsby type bushings but plastic or nylon washers. I always thought those were a cheaper import Bigsby knock offs that Norlin used to cut corners. What do you think?

 

[27sauce]

The bottom, and a side shot of where the bearings are pressed in. Also, the edge by where the three surface mounting screws are. I'd like to see if that edge is polished, or if there are tool marks. I think the only time I've seen these is on double necks, both hollow and solid.

Yeah, it looks all of the pics are of double necks.

 

[bigsby'd]

We had a discussion several years ago abouit the ones in post #5, not the ones Eric is showing. The ones shown on the 70's guitar engraved "Gibson" were a lot like to the ones on the Japanese copies of that era. They don't have the Bigsby type bushings but plastic or nylon washers. I always thought those were a cheaper import Bigsby knock offs that Norlin used to cut corners. What do you think?

They've never "felt" right to me. The pressure bar isn't sleaved, and all the other things you mentioned. The arm retainer though is exact, and looks and feels identical to a Bigsby unit. I can only really ask more questions about them. I wonder if they were assembled in-house, and Gibson used their own hardware (bushings, bearings, retainers etc). I wish I had an answer, as I'm 'sposed to be the bigsby guy, but I don't. They were made while Ted owned Bigsby, and I can't imagine a bigger FU from Gibson than to make a Bigsby copy. Maybe Ted hooked them up with castings and parts. Anyone else know anything?

 

[abalonevintage]

I wish I had an answer, as I'm 'sposed to be the bigsby guy

Blatant honesty...thank you! That's OK, I'm 'sposed to be the "double neck" guy. :rofl

Yeah, it looks all of the pics are of double necks.

I think the only other "flat top" guitars from the 50's that may have these Bigsbys are Explorers. (?)

Since these have a smaller "foot print", I wonder if Bigsby made a small batch for the double necks since the volume knob ALMOST touches the trem. SOME double necks got a legit horseshoe Bigsby, BUT none of these trem equipped guitars appears as though they were the original bridge. All of these have holes underneath where the non-trem tails were!!!!!!! (Roughly one third of all double necks had a Bigsby.) See comps:

Black guitar is a refin., so its unusual Bigsby placement may be explained by this.

On the ones I have photos of, some have slot head screws, some phillips. AND, there are many "bar" variants too. The bar on the below photos appears to be DIE CAST. I don't see these as being 70's, they are on too many 50's and 60's Gibson. They are not like the 70's "Gibson" branded ones.

 

[bigsby'd]

Nice. Its definitely a Bigsby product, but I was already 95% sure on that. (We're talking about Eric's Bigsby now, not the 70s Gibson variant....for those keeping score). The one you posted has a '56 arm on it, but Gibson bought in bulk, and it was probably floating around for a couple of years before it was bolted to anything. Is that chromed, or has it had the bejesus polished out of it? I have a '57 B7 that's chromed, but I've never seen another. It could've been done anytime in the last 50 years, or at birth. Who knows? Its definitely not pulled from a B5 mold, or a cut down B5. I'm sticking with my guess of a cut-down B7. Because of the arm variants ('56 cast arm in the large pictures, the '58-early 60s phillips, and what looks like on my monitor, a press in stud), my educated guess is still cut down B7s. I'm also going to guess that Gibson did it, and not Bigsby, due to the 5 mounting holes. I have a really early horseshoe unit, pre-B5, no tension bar, that has the rear mounting holes in the same place as B5 mounting holes.

 

[abalonevintage]

Yeah, I think you got this one figured out. :salude :salude :salude

Since there are so many variations with regards to mounting screw bevels, overall shape and the like. I think Gibson got the Bigsbys raw, cut them down, and finished them off.

WACKY!

By the way, the Bigsby I photographed was originally gold.

 

[j45]

They've never "felt" right to me. The pressure bar isn't sleaved, and all the other things you mentioned. The arm retainer though is exact, and looks and feels identical to a Bigsby unit. I can only really ask more questions about them. I wonder if they were assembled in-house, and Gibson used their own hardware (bushings, bearings, retainers etc). I wish I had an answer, as I'm 'sposed to be the bigsby guy, but I don't. They were made while Ted owned Bigsby, and I can't imagine a bigger FU from Gibson than to make a Bigsby copy. Maybe Ted hooked them up with castings and parts. Anyone else know anything?

I don't think McCarty was still at Gibson when those cheaply made trems were used by Norliin was he? If he was I think you are right but on the other hand I have a hard time seeing Bigsby producing something that doesn't used their patented mechanism. I'm going with import until someone can come up with why Bigsby would downgrade to that point. Seems Bigsby would have had to do a lot of re-tooling to build a low-cost limited run just for Gibson.

I don't think there could be any doubt about Eric's examples looking at the parts and construction..

 

[bigsby'd]

Ted McCarty owned Bigsby at the time Gibson was using the cheap looking units.

 

[abalonevintage]

McCarty left Gibson in 1966 and took over Bigsby ASAP.

I'm going with import until someone can come up with why Bigsby would downgrade to that point.

Bigsby had an extremely difficult time keeping up with product demand...that is ultimately why Paul Bigsby retired and sold the business to McCarty. Because of the politics involved (McCarty disliked the new "Ivy League" Gibson management.) Gibson may have struck a deal to have a licensed product made. I'm sure this is a "known."

Also, after McCarty left, Gibson started losing money. A crappy, cheaper Bigsby is only one of many crappy cheaper design changes during those dark ages.

 

[j45]

Ted McCarty owned Bigsby at the time Gibson was using the cheap looking units.

I know but there was no conflict of interest for Norlin to not use Bigsby since McCarty was not affiliated with Gibson/CMI/Notlin right? Norlin would have had no ties to McCarty or obligatuion to use his parts. It would almost seem like they would have looked elsewhere to find parts rather than keep any financial ties open with Ted or anyone affiliated with the old Gibson management or ownership (especially considering Ted's dislike for Norlin management).

Also, after McCarty left, Gibson started losing money. A crappy, cheaper Bigsby is only one of many crappy cheaper design changes during those dark ages.

Geez Eric, instead of beating around the bush why don't you just come out and say what you think about CMI's Gibson products. :salude