Deluxe VS. Deluxe Reverb

[Letkeman]

So recently I have been GASing hard for one of the afformentioned amps. The only tube amp ive ever, and still do own, is a Fender Blues Jr. In listening to a bunch of Fleetwood Mac and Bloomfield stuff I have been overwhelmed with the need to buy an old Deluxe Reverb. I am very uneducated about these amps, only gathering what I could from previous threads here but have a few questions.

1. Is there a glaring tonal difference in these two amps?
2. Knowing that PG played a Reverb, did the fact of it being a reverb model affect his tone much, or should I be able to get a similar tones by plugging my R8 into a Deluxe.

Perhaps I should clarify that I am willing to spend some cash on a vintage peice, and although I was planning on buyin an R4, I figure that the price of these BFDR and BFD are only going to go up, so if im going to buy one, the sooner the better. Thanks for any and all input you an provide!:dude:

Nick

 

[Mr. Papa]

I think the non-reverb model will have a different tone because the circuit doesn't have the reverb buffer circuit in it, which channels the signal through an RC network that softens the signal to send it to the reverb tank, then boosts it once the signal has gone through the tank. Cutting that out probably results in a stronger, less-filtered tone. However, that filtering or whatever you want to call it is probably fundamental to the clean BF reverb sound, and you might find that the non-BF version doesn't sound the way you'd expect it to.

Someone correct me if I have this wrong, as I've never used a non-reverb blackface.

 

[Kap'n]

Using a BF Deluxe is sort of like using the "Normal" channel on a Deluxe Reverb. Less gain.

Brown and Tweed. That's a whole 'nuther deal.

 

[Banker]

One of the very best reverb's..............why wouldn't you want it? You can always use the normal channel.

 

[59Vampire]

i thought PG used Matamps

 

[geetarpicker]

Yes the reverb is really nice to have. However the non-reverb one is a little smaller and lighter and do sound great. I've owned about 3 reverb ones, but currently own x3 '64 non-reverb Deluxes. On a non-reverb one the normal channel is actually the hotter of the two. If you check one out in person, make sure you try both channels especially the normal side. I find the tone of either amp fairly similar if you aren't going to dime it and plan to run pedals. In a normal gigging situation I run mine on 5, which is right on the edge of breakup. Then I run some pedals and I'm good to go. If you really want to just crank the amp without pedals, then you might want the extra gain of the reverb models. The non-reverb Deluxes do run slightly lower preamp plate voltages, so the tone is a little thicker and darker than the reverb deluxese which I like. It's still Fendery, just not quite as over the top glassy as some Deluxe amps can get. However it is not a night and day difference, and the choice of speaker you run can make even more of a difference actually. I really like the fact that the non-reverb Deluxes are still quite a bit more affordable these days. I recently found a working '64 non-reverb on ebay that needed a baffle board, grill, speaker and backpanels but I got it for only $315. After restoring it I only had about $500 in it.

________________________________
www.myspace.com/glenkuykendall

 

[straightblues]

I have a 64 Non-Reverb Deluxe. I got mine as a butchered head. I put it into a custom cabinet with a 15 Alnico Weber Speaker with a smooth cone. The big smooth cone adds some speaker breakup and gives the amp a little bit of tweed flavor. It is a great amp. It is cleaner than a deluxe reverb. But with the right tubes and speaker, the two amps can sound very close. I agree that the Deluxe non reverb might be a little thicker but not much. These are great amps and represent a great value. Here is a picture of mine.


The Green Monster:

 

[Kap'n]

On a non-reverb one the normal channel is actually the hotter of the two.

Yep, there's no "Intensity" pot dragging down the level.

 

[plaintop]

I use to play '64 Deluxe Reverbs until my buddy came over with a '64 non-reverb Deluxe. I was hooked immediately. It was hotter, tighter bass with focused mids. I had to have one. Bought a ’64 and a ’63. Still have the ’64. It’s my main amp. I just love the tone of it on the Normal channel between 6-7 volume. I think it’s the perfect amp for PAF tone. If you like Bloomfield and Green, you’ll have all the tone you need with one. And you can add an outboard reverb unit and have more control and better reverb. All for less than the price of a vintage DR.

I still play a Deluxe Reverb all the time when I don’t take my amp to the local jam. It’s good tone, I don’t mind them at all, but it’s just not the same as a regular BF Deluxe.

 

[60pinstripe]

I use to play '64 Deluxe Reverbs until my buddy came over with a '64 non-reverb Deluxe. I was hooked immediately. It was hotter, tighter bass with focused mids. I had to have one. Bought a ’64 and a ’63. Still have the ’64. It’s my main amp. I just love the tone of it on the Normal channel between 6-7 volume. I think it’s the perfect amp for PAF tone. If you like Bloomfield and Green, you’ll have all the tone you need with one. And you can add an outboard reverb unit and have more control and better reverb. All for less than the price of a vintage DR.

I still play a Deluxe Reverb all the time when I don’t take my amp to the local jam. It’s good tone, I don’t mind them at all, but it’s just not the same as a regular BF Deluxe.

++++1
There is truly something special happening with the non reverb models.

 

[Rickenjangle]

Whenever I think of PG's tone, I think of a butter Les Paul tone swimming in reverb. At least, that's the way it sounded when he replaced Clapton in Mayall's Bluesbreakers.

 

[plaintop]

I should add the perfect "low-wattage" amp for PAF tone. Or P-90 LP tone for that matter.

If I had to say what the differences were between the two, I'd say the DR was boomy, glassier, with more clean headroom. The Deluxe has more gain. More aggressive response, tighter bass, less headroom, less perceived volume. They are little tone monsters. I’ve had all the amps, and this one is really perfect for small club use and around the house. Ideally, though I’d prefer a Super Reverb.

 

[shuie]

Does the normal channel on a Deluxe Reverb bypass the reverb unit completely? I've never heard a Deluxe AB'ed with the normal channel on a Deluxe Reverb, but I got to hear a Deluxe and then the same amp with an external brown Fender reverb box in front of it and the amp sounded a lot darker with the reverb unit in line. Im sure the amp could be EQ'ed to compensate for this, but it was a pretty big difference, IMO.

 

[RickN]

I think the non-reverb model will have a different tone because the circuit doesn't have the reverb buffer circuit in it, which channels the signal through an RC network that softens the signal to send it to the reverb tank, then boosts it once the signal has gone through the tank. Cutting that out probably results in a stronger, less-filtered tone. However, that filtering or whatever you want to call it is probably fundamental to the clean BF reverb sound, and you might find that the non-BF version doesn't sound the way you'd expect it to.

Someone correct me if I have this wrong, as I've never used a non-reverb blackface.

Well, okay, sorta... The RC network you're talking about doesn't soften the signal for the reverb. The original signal is split coming out of the second stage of the Trem/Verb stage. Some of it goes to the reverb circuit, some is sent on. The signal for the reverb actually needs to be boosted, not softened. The reverb uses both halves of the 12AT7 reverb driver tube through that little bitty transformer on the outside of the chassis - THAT'S what conditions the signal to go through the reverb tank. Coming out of the tank, the signal goes through half of another 12AX7, and the Reverb control. That delayed signal gets sent back to mix with the original signal.

That RC network you seem to be referring to is the non-delayed signal's 'mix' resistor network. The delayed signal's mix resistor is its rotary control with another resistor in series with it.

Those two signals join together and get sent to the other half of the reverb recovery 12AX7, and that's configured as a gain stage.

The non-reverb channel DOESN'T go through that gain stage.

On non-reverb Deluxes, you don't have that extra gain stage on the Trem channel that you find in the reverb versions.

More things varied than just plate voltages - these amps varied slightly from one to another just like Marshalls have a reputation for. Even among the same model, you'll find they (Fender) changed little items like the tuning of the tone stack, for instance. Sometimes you'll see one with .047uf mid-caps and sometimes you'll see one with .033uf mid caps. So don't read too much into the variation in plate voltages. You'll see bigger variations in plate voltages by plugging in mid-morning when the electrical demand is low and wall voltages are high, versus plugging in around 8pm when everyone is home with their lights and TVs on and wall voltages are lower.

One isn't better than the other. Having played examples of both, including a really mint non-reverb Deluxe owned by forum member "early60", I prefer the extra sizzle of the reverb version... especially with well-chosen tubes. :headbange The non-reverb versions have their attributes too.

In the most ideal of test-worlds, see if you can locate a good example of each and talk the owners into letting you take them home for a week. Play them side-by-side over several sittings. One version or the other will eventually 'speak' to you. :salude

 

[geetarpicker]

All late '64s. Other than a '60 tweed Champ, these are the only Fender amps I own.

_____________________________
www.myspace.com/glenkuykendall

 

[BurstMeUp]

I've only had my DRRI a little over a week, but it gets my vote!

 

[Drawrein]

Some people swear the Holy Grail pedal is indistinguishable from the best Fender reverb. I am pretty satisfied with a Boss RV5.

BTW: just to confuse things, did you hear of S2 amps? They can gut your Bjr and put in a PTP Black Face circuit in it for about $400. There are reviews to read on Harmony Central.

D

 

[plaintop]

In comparison of gain structure between the two, I’d have to say the DR has a quacky, mushier gain, and as you go up in volume it seems to get more compressed, intense and softer. Where as the Deluxe stays tighter, the gain is much more focused, and as you go up in volume the volume actually increases with the gain. It’s meatier and thicker tone, smoother, more articulate …think Super Reverb like. But to say the DR has more gain? I don’t really think that is the case. In a compressed sort of way, maybe…ok. It’s a different gain for sure, and the bass / cabinet resonance or headroom seems to not be focused (in the DR). I think the circuits are what they are, and you can change things to a certain degree with tubes and speakers, but I think side by side (cranked up), what I’ve mentioned here is about what you’re going to hear. YMMV

 

[60pinstripe]

 

[plaintop]

http://www.brandens.net/files/Sounds/CLIPS/PEEKABOO.WAV