Deluxe VS. Deluxe Reverb

[bluesforstevie]

i thought PG used Matamps

He used a Silver Face Fender Deluxe Reverb in the Otis Spann sessions.

 

[RickN]

But to say the DR has more gain? I don’t really think that is the case.

Here's how to tell: Get out the schematics of both, and read them. Plain as day. Do they have a different frequency response? Sure. But frequency response and gain aren't the same thing. Yes. The reverb version has more gain. Simple to see. :jim

 

[lpnv59]

Every black & silverface non reverb Fender combo I ever played thru was pretty stingy with giving up crunch & saturation. YMMV

 

[plaintop]

Here's how to tell: Get out the schematics of both, and read them. Plain as day. Do they have a different frequency response? Sure. But frequency response and gain aren't the same thing. Yes. The reverb version has more gain. Simple to see. :jim

You’ve obviously never played a ’63 BF Deluxe. The one I sold recently had more gain than any Deluxe I’ve ever owned. It was on par with Brown Deluxes and had many components made during the Brown era. On (4) it was creamy gain, on (6) it was full on crunchy rock tone. No DR could ever touch that amp in gain. Now, I don’t know how many BF Deluxe amps you have or had, but I can assure you they vary widely, and to say one has more gain than the other based on a schematic is just not the reality of what is happening with these.

 

[mingus]

Some people swear the Holy Grail pedal is indistinguishable from the best Fender reverb. I am pretty satisfied with a Boss RV5.D

Um. . . . . no. I used to own a Holy Grail and sold it after buying the Holier Grail, which does sound better, has virtually no noise/tone coloration and a true hard bypass switch. As far as reverb emulating pedals, it's the best one I've found.

I've been on the hunt for a BF amp with reverb and narrowed it down to a Deluxe Reverb or a Vibroverb. As a certified tone freak, I had to step up to the a '64 Vibroverb. WOW! The reverb in it blows the doors off the Holier Grail. There is no comparison when you have them side by side. There is NOTHING like the shimmery, glassy jangle of a blackface amp with reverb and if you don't want reverb, you can always go into the "normal" side or hit the foot switch. They don't suck when cranked up a bit either! As a matter of fact, they break up beautifully at a reasonable volume level with humbuckers and single coils. Deluxe Reverbs are awesome and I think they are undervalued relative to the vintage market right now. I opted to step up to the Vibroverb because the 15" speaker in it and the additional amp power (40 watts vs. 20) produce the most incredible tone.

The stock 12" speakers in DRs don't sound as great as they could if they were originally of higher quality. I've found that to move enough air to really sound great, 2x12" or 1x15" are typically needed. Many guys swap out the 12" Jensens in the DRs for an ElectroVoice SRO or other more robust drivers. The problem there is that the more you monkey with a clean, all-original amp, the more you risk damaging and/or devaluing it. My advice: step up to a bone stock Vibroverb and you'll have all the lush, full-bodied Fender tone you could ever want.

 

[mingus]

You’ve obviously never played a ’63 BF Deluxe. The one I sold recently had more gain than any Deluxe I’ve ever owned. It was on par with Brown Deluxes and had many components made during the Brown era. On (4) it was creamy gain, on (6) it was full on crunchy rock tone. No DR could ever touch that amp in gain. Now, I don’t know how many BF Deluxe amps you have or had, but I can assure you they vary widely, and to say one has more gain than the other based on a schematic is just not the reality of what is happening with these.

I'm no amp schematic guru, but I do know that the gain can be traced to two sources: 1) additional cascaded gain stages, and 2) the individual gain characteristics of the tubes being used, which can vary dramatically.

So, unless you had identical tubes (manufacturer, measurements, output/voltages etc.) in your "experiment", your observations cannot be held as absolute.

 

[plaintop]

Tubes and speakers didn't matter in the '63 Deluxe. It was a flame thrower no matter what was in it. More Brown than BF, but with some BF stoutness mixed in. Can a stock DR sound like that? I guess it's possible although the 20-30 I've ever played didn't. It's a different circuit with very different tone.

We haven’t even touched on the early ’64 Deluxes. That’s a whole other discussion. Congrats on the Vibroverb, I love all the ’64 Fender amps. It was one of the best years for looks and tone. They were really doing things right.

 

[60pinstripe]

Here's how to tell: Get out the schematics of both, and read them. Plain as day. Do they have a different frequency response? Sure. But frequency response and gain aren't the same thing. Yes. The reverb version has more gain. Simple to see. :jim

The way to tell is to plug them in with your fav axe and take them for a comparative spin.
I have played & owned many reverb equiped models. The non reverb (particularly earlier ones) are rare. My first encounter with an early '64 non reverb model spun my head around.
I feel very strongly that the non reverb early '64 will prevail.

 

[Kap'n]

Tubes and speakers didn't matter in the '63 Deluxe. It was a flame thrower no matter what was in it. More Brown than BF, but with some BF stoutness mixed in. Can a stock DR sound like that? I guess it's possible although the 20-30 I've ever played didn't. It's a different circuit with very different tone.

That absolutely doesn't sound like any blackface deluxe I've hard of. Could it have been modded, or a transitional circuit.

If it's earlier than July '63, then it doesn't have a blackface circuit. Did it have separate bass/treble controls?

 

[plaintop]

It was a Dec. '63 transitional circuit. It had flavors of Brown and BF. Solid mids, a very rock sounding amp. More lower mids than top-end like a typical BF amp. It sounded like I'd expect it to, probably more Marshally/Brown than BF. 60pinstripe and I both felt the same way about the '63, and liked it for the tone it had. Ultimately, we felt the early '64 had more musical highs, with the thick, focused, driving bottom-end of the '63. A little cleaner, more note separation, articulation and bloom. More of what you’d expect from a BF amp. It was like it all came together for this amp in early '64.

 

[Letkeman]

Wow, some really great resonses here. I may actually be more confused about my decision now, as both amps seem to have some great qualities. I am wondering about the Browns. I seem to remember reading taht billy gibbons used one of these on the first coule ZZ top albums. his tone was fantastic, but what I am wondering about is can you still get those beautiful Green-ish tones. I know the reverb isnt there to help, but I'm more interesting in getting the dirtier sound PG tones. Like you hear on Rollin' Man or the intro to Comin' your way. Also, how much does a fairly good condition, original Brown cost?

 

[plaintop]

You might want to consider an Orange amp for Rollin' Man tone. Brown Deluxes are roughly a grand to 1500.

 

[Letkeman]

Cool. I'll look into orange. Any specific models you would suggest?

 

[6L6]

Yep, I've heard PT's old '63 and granted it had a Celestion Blue in it, I never heard anything with that kinda gain coming from a Fender. Very aggressive sounding, and very different from the DRs I've played.

 

[plaintop]

Cool. I'll look into orange. Any specific models you would suggest?

I'd like to keep this on topic. Just do a search here. There are many Orange lovers on this site.

 

[straightblues]

I am surprised that there is so much love for the Deluxe (non-reverb). I have been playing mine for about 6 years and I have never ran across another one. When I do, I will buy it. Most of the discussion I have heard over the years has been luke warm. I really love these amps and was begining to think I was the only one.

 

[plaintop]

Yep, I've heard PT's old '63 and granted it had a Celestion Blue in it, I never heard anything with that kinda gain coming from a Fender. Very aggressive sounding, and very different from the DRs I've played.

I know, crazy right? You heard this fire breathing Marshall tone, and then you look over at a Black Face Fender amp. :spabout The cool thing about that amp is that it filled the room. I can't say enough about the even midrange it has. And you could scale it up or down with tubes and speakers. Somebody is really enjoying that one right about now.

I guess I'll be able to get through with my early '64....:2cool

 

[6L6]

I know it was a rocker but I woulda hung onto that '63 if I were you. That little thing crapped all over my BLK-18 and it ain't no slouch, either!

 

[plaintop]

I can't keep them all. It was fun to learn about them, but I felt it was time to move those funds in another direction. If I find a beater '63 somewhere I might grab. They are just rock solid amps with killer tone.

What's an 18 watt? :lol